Different Instruments at Pennsic

topic posted Wed, September 23, 2009 - 9:35 PM by  offlineAchbar
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Drums are nice, but I ahve to say that I have seen three different people playing Ouds at pennsic. Although I own an Oud, I need to practice more. Drums are cool, but we need more
posted by:
Achbar
Charlotte
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  • Re: Different Instruments at Pennsic

    Thu, September 24, 2009 - 3:10 AM
    part of the problem is alot of period ethic instraments are not very loud unless you bring a small descrit Amp which will get you yelled at by some people. Actulayt it depends on wher you are I have been able to play my saz Unamped at a few partys just by politly asking the other drumers to play reall soft for a while. course you eventual run into a few drummers who decide on ther own that its to boring and just play over you *cough* a certain drummer who will remain unnamed.
    Seriusly the main probem is volume to where you can be heard over even normal conversation. Yes thier are Load period instamnets that can be played but sometimes. Loud is way over rated. Personal i have no problem if soem oen witha soft instament sutch as a oud or saz wants to use a a decretly hidden amp. the key its to use the amp to Match the sound of you instrament and not overpower it.
    Actulay achbar i remeber alot more stringed instamenst when i first started way back in the day before druming became the cool and in thing to do at pensic.
    Emyrs
    • Re: Different Instruments at Pennsic

      Thu, September 24, 2009 - 8:45 AM
      I think the problem is one of where do we set the dividing line. Why do we criticize a lightly amplified string instrument, but not a drum with modern technology used to amplify it? I remember when wailing hard on a drum meant that you were damaging it. I also remember when mylar heads became readily available, and then when the aluminum doumbeks with mylar heads became readily available. The nature, and volume, of drumming changed. So it seems to me that a drummer whose potential volume is due to modern technology, complaining about an amplified oud, is the proverbial pot calling the kettle black.

      I miss seeing a group of drummers warming their drum heads by the fire. Then again, a few of my group have availed themselves of the other benefits of an aluminum drum with mylar head... As a convenient barf bucket.

      Mostly the problem seems to me to be that, with a stringed instrument, it seems obvious that with minimal practice you just aren't that good, while this degree of insight is apparently not the case with a drum...
      • Re: Different Instruments at Pennsic

        Thu, September 24, 2009 - 7:36 PM
        The modern ear is beaten down and responds to amplification, even if set to the same volume as an un amplified instrument
        I HATE amplification at pennsic! ANNY amplification.!
        Not a fan of mylar and aluminum ether
        My drum, hand thrown with a dear skin head, sounds so nice. might get a bear mug drum some day, but I'm in no rush, because with my drum I play well with others.
        • Re: Different Instruments at Pennsic

          Thu, September 24, 2009 - 7:37 PM
          Opps BEER mug. :) I need sleep.
          • Re: Different Instruments at Pennsic

            Thu, September 24, 2009 - 11:44 PM
            im not a real fan of amplication also but if it is what is nessesary. I do miss the days when goat and fishkin doumbeks where more popular was alot more mellower sound that stringed instamenst could be heard over. Mine died about 5 years ago unfortunatly. well which is part of the reason for the switch Aluminum drums just take more abuse and last longer.

            and actulay a decent acoustic amp with little to no distorian can help. I have actulay seem a amp build into seats that when they wher set lwo enough boosted the volume of the instrament wo being overly obvious. All depends on you amp and pree amp settings.
            Though i admit the Loudly amplied Bozuki's i sometimes hear and pensic can irritate me. Well mainly cause a bosuki can be loud enough wo Amplification. It all about the Level of amplification.
            Emyrs
            • Re: Different Instruments at Pennsic

              Sun, September 27, 2009 - 11:22 PM
              Ah Grim...................... so you have just berated percussion and trashed most instrumentalists at Pennsic..
              Here's a few simple facts:

              We are part of the Society for CREATIVE ANACHRONISM.

              Most if not ALL of the instruments played at Pennsic are not period at all. Although the guitar did exist within the period of the SCA it was very very very late period and uncommon. Clarinets didn't exist at all (18th century). Metal valved flutes didn't exist at all(19th century). The modern violin didn't exist at all (18th century and the chin rest was 20th century). The cumbus didn't exist at all (1920's). Metal darbukas (doumbeks) most certainly did exist but the synthetic heads of course are a 20th century invention as are almost all of the strings (synthetic) on all of the stringed instruments played at Pennsic. Celtic music was not accompanied by the Bohdran (That came to Celtic music in the last quarter of the 19th century).
              Warriors didn't have stainless steel armor and weapons were not made in stainless steel (20th century). I don't thing anyone wore plastic armor and I'm pretty certain that duct tape didn't exist. Machine woven synthetic and florescent colored fabrics are most definitely not period. Potatoes, tomatoes, sweet corn, and a whole variety of foods were not period in Europe.
              People in the Dark Ages, High Middle Ages and Renaissance would actually stop and listen to music. Ten thousand boisterous populace clanking around wearing armor and noisy bright swords most likely were not wandering through market places, and if they were, there probably wouldn't have been any musicians playing ouds and saz's and doumbeks (Lutes, hurdy gurdy's and tambours would be more likely unless those musicians sensibly ran into the hills for fear of all of the heavily armed commoners and barbarians walking around that looked like they were up to no good).
              I doubt very much if you would have had Arabs, Japanese, Vikings and French nobles walking around the market places together either.
              I'm not saying it wouldn't have happened, but you must agree that it would be highly unlikely.
              We are not a living history group. We are not Timeline.
              The world that we live in is loud. We have passing planes, the hum of refrigerator motors, golf carts and other motor vehicles passing by at Pennsic, and a very loud and rude populace.
              An oud and a saz are very subtle instruments. They are always amplified when played in arenas and clubs in the real world outside of the SCA and will go unheard within the SCA if they are not. For larger venues, the only instruments that will be heard over percussion would be horns, bombards, bagpipes, shawms and brass instruments (That must be why they don't have minstrels strumming lutes to announce the oncoming army or the arrival of royalty).
              I make my living as a musician and I play clubs with dancers at least 3 nights a week. I am a percussionist (by choice) but I also play keyboards and trumpet (I just prefer percussion). I can play very loud, much louder than a novice wailing away on a mylar head doumbek, and I don't strike the drum nearly as hard. It is all in the technique. I can also play very clear and distinctly playing very softly so that I can be heard, but then the "doumbek cowboys" at Pennsic start walloping their drums. Thankfully most of those that bring djembes to Pennsic have no idea how to play them because djembes played properly can be heard for miles away (9th century instrument).

              In the SCA we are inviting. We encourage people to bring their instruments. Very often these are instruments that were never meant to be played together or from places so foreign to each other that they never would have been. That's one of the charming aspects of the SCA.
              We are like a melting pot of culture and ideas from different periods and cultures all singing together in one big cacophonous choir. Maybe not great music, but certainly great fun. (It's kind of like adults acting like kindergarden kids when the instrument box comes out.)

              Live with it. Sometimes we need to use amplification on voices that can't be heard otherwise. It's the SCA.
              • Re: Different Instruments at Pennsic

                Mon, September 28, 2009 - 6:30 AM
                Jeffrey: Ah Grim...................... so you have just berated percussion and trashed most instrumentalists at Pennsic..

                And: Live with it. Sometimes we need to use amplification on voices that can't be heard otherwise. It's the SCA.


                Wow, I'm not sure where this came from. Achbar mentioned that, while drums are nice, he'd like a little more variety. Emyrs replied that the problem with playing together is the disparity in volume, and remarked that the ratio of stringed instruments and drums used to be different.

                I then brought up the fact that if a quiet stringed instrument is amplified, it is often criticized. (as reinforced by comments following mine) But a drum with a mylar head that allows anyone (not just a skilled drummer) to play louder is not objected to. I didn't criticize either technology, I criticized the inequity of accepting one modern amplification tool, while rejecting another.

                The closest I came to berating percussion in general was to point out the fact that the amount of skill that people are comfortable with in public performances seems to me to be lower for percussion than for stringed instruments. I glean this from the fact that I seldom hear terrible stringed instruments performing, (though I do hear hesitant practicing in private) while I often enough hear bad drumming in a group, around a fire with dancers. It's a simple fact that drumming seems less intimidating and much easier to a layman, while a musician understands that good drum technique is a complex skill comparable to many other instruments. Your "doumbek cowboys" comment only seems to reinforce the view I expressed.

                I still don't see how I trashed any instrumentalists. (beyond the "doumbek cowboys" of course) Although I don't personally like amplifiers, because I think they are a slippery slope that leads to more volume increase than needed, undisguised amps, and worst of all: distortion caused by too small of an amp or low battery, I still defend their use by comparing them to the widely accepted modern drum amplifier: the mylar head.

                That's why your "live with it" comment was particularly puzzling. I prefer unamplified strings and natural drum heads, but I recognize the practicality of other options. My disagreement is with the perceived disparity in acceptance between two practical modern intrusions. To put it another way: Don't gripe about my damn foreign Honda while you're driving a Volvo...

                On a side note: To the harpist up the hill from the Pentwyvern / Mermayde's Keep border who plays post-period classical music sometimes: Please keep playing. When you do, it's one of the highlights of my War, and I don't care if it's not really period.
                • Re: Different Instruments at Pennsic

                  Mon, September 28, 2009 - 11:20 AM
                  I'm sorry if I misrepresented you Grim, but the wording that you used brought up a few sore points that have been mentioned many times in many places before. Jokes like: "What do you call somebody that hangs around with musicians? DRUMMERS!"
                  There is a misconception among the public that just because some "moron" gets a guitar and can strum three or four rhythm chords and sing like Neil Young or Bob Dylan, he or she is somehow more of a musician than a drummer. I read music. I read G cleft, C cleft and Percussion cleft as well as "The Grand Score". I understand the European modes and I have a basic understanding of the Maqams (although that is a fairly recent thing). Most oif not all of the drummers that I know have similar skills and backgrounds. Many of the string and wind players that you'll meet at Pennsic don't read or understand music. Most of the guitarists that I've worked with in studios play by ear.
                  I am fed up with oud, bouzouki, and saz players in SCA and Ren Fair venues that play those instruments as if they are rhythm guitars and look down their noses at percussionists. Any moron with a few days worth of lessons can play chords on one of those instruments. Oh and BTW I play end blown flutes and penny whistles as well as harmonica and those are very easy instruments to learn. Playing a darbuka well takes as much skill and training as playing a classical violin. Most people don't give it that type of effort though.
                  So please forgive me if I unfairly responded to you, but this is where my objections are coming from.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Different Instruments at Pennsic

                    Mon, September 28, 2009 - 9:28 PM
                    Modern strings are metal or nylon, both are louder than a gut string. this balances out the Mylar head. some instruments are meant to be played in side for people who wanted to listen to the music, some are meant to be played Out side and are louder. using an amp to force people to listen to you is what bothers me. The best music at pennsic, played thew an amp may as well be played out of a boom box. yes it greats on my nerves that bad.

                    I don't read music, (I'm L.D. so I'm lucky I can read.) and don't have the best hearing, can carry a tune, if it comes in a good bag. getting a set of highland pipes, what kind of amp should I get? : )
                    • Re: Different Instruments at Pennsic

                      Mon, September 28, 2009 - 10:13 PM
                      As one who is not a musician but who enjoys - mostly - the music at Pennsic, I'm glad to see someone else say that the amplified music is grating. I couldn't agree more. While I understand the desire to balance quieter instruments, there is still something about the actual quality of the sound that sets my nerves on edge in that environment.

                      Louder is not necessarily better - it is just louder. And it seems that the louder a group plays to be heard, the louder the crowd talks anyway, so the louder you play...so the louder the crowd....eventually, you just have to wonder if there is any point in it other than the volumn.

                      And to whoever was playing the trumpet this year - this is no comment on your talent or ability, but damn, that was beyond annoying! It was way, way out of place, and I overheard more than one person saying they kept expecting to hear some marching band, football fight song at any moment. Please, please, please leave it home next year and play something with a more appropriate tone/feel for the event.
                      • Re: Different Instruments at Pennsic

                        Tue, September 29, 2009 - 2:18 AM
                        Actualy my Long neck (bozuk and Divan )Sazs and larger sazs Are played alot like a rhythem guitar tradtionaly. its the shorter neck Baglama Tambura and Cura sazs that use more cross neck playing.
                        But then i digress )
                        Personaly i like playing both Drum and Saz. Though i dont bring my Saz to most large drum circles.
                        • Re: Different Instruments at Pennsic

                          Tue, September 29, 2009 - 2:35 AM
                          wel the one trumpet who was playing with the balkan band was right for that type of music But. I was asked if i could bring a Bass Sackbut to pensic to play one day. Basicly it s Huge trombone and totaly period as are slide trumpets. I personaly woudl Love to see a Medival brass band at pensic.
                          www.eggerinstruments.ch/rp_e.htm
                          btw the trumpet is period just Modern piston Valves are not
                          which is why outside of a few Special partys i don't bring my Tuba out mutch at Pensic.
  • Re: Different Instruments at Pennsic

    Sun, October 4, 2009 - 1:46 PM
    i LOVE accompanying melody instruments when i'm on a drum. One of my favorite drumming moments was just playing some simple rythems while my friend played his guitar and we improved off each other with a visual cue or deep inhale or what not to signal changs. It was one of those magical moments.

    So I can forgive amps if they help balance my metal and mylar.

    I can't forgive amps when they are so effin loud you can hear them from a block away.

    Exhibit A: www.youtube.com/watch

    That video was taken middle saturday 2 wars ago. It was during my camps anniversary dinner, and it's one of my camp's favorite songs. It should have been a magical moment, but if you listen closely, it starts faintly at :20 seconds in, but around :45 seconds you can notice it better... A camp away and across the road and ditch at vlads, a band is practicing for the slave auction. (for reference i'm at house hedgehog which sits across the road on the highway side from the ravenspittle) Not even performing for the auction but they keep playing the same like 12 lines of a song WELL OVER amplified. it was like you're listening to music and you stumble across a webpage where there's music playing and you can't figure out where the music is coming from to make it stop. It was so grating.

    And to be fair, bagpipes about 2 blocks away can be heard just as loud but for some reason he drone kinda lets it just become part of the natural echo of the land, something an amp on a stringed instrument doesn't seem capable of doing.

    This last pennsic there was a lot of awesome music coming over from ravenspittle/vlad's with the gypsy band. Then on the corner (alongside the lake) across form ravenspittle there's a camp full of musicians and the dulcimer guy comes down to play with them. I don't think i experienced a single night without good music this last pennsic, and that's saying a lot becasue i wasn't capable of leaving camp.
  • Re: Different Instruments at Pennsic

    Mon, November 23, 2009 - 11:21 AM
    Yes, to the things below, but I feel compelled to mention the electric bass that showed up again and again at Pennsic this year. Sorry if I'm insulting the player of such, but I found it so distasteful at Pennsic and it's playing really was disregard for what Pennsic is. The player may have been the nicest person in the world, but I ran the other direction every time I heard it far or near. I can hear an electric bass anywhere in mundania. I don't want it at SCA events. Oh, and there were TWO electric base at War Practice.
  • Re: Different Instruments at Pennsic

    Wed, December 2, 2009 - 6:37 PM
    i'm really excited to hear all the sounds of pennsic
    i'd love to hear some guitars and other things. stringed instruments are always nice.
    even though it's not period, i plan on bringing my clarinet. if i have enough space, i'd like to bring my lap harp too
    • Re: Different Instruments at Pennsic

      Thu, December 3, 2009 - 7:09 AM
      Elle -- You, of course, have a right to your opinion. But those things are NOT the sounds of Pennsic. They are the sounds of a different time (today) and place. (here). They can be heard anywhere and IMHO, don't need to be heard at Pennsic. I've played the silver flute for MANY years, but I don't play it at Pennsic. It wasn't invited until after 1500's. So, I'll stick to my wooden flutes and Celtic flute at Pennsic. What's the hardship. I'm sorry, but I'm for keeping Pennsic as Pennsic and making it the experience it was intended to be. p.s. I also play lap harp. I'm not sure of it's "periodness" but it's got a way better chance than the clarinet. Sorry if I've offended. I'm denying myself one of my greatest pleasures (my silver flute) to keep from offending other Pennsic goers.
      • Re: Different Instruments at Pennsic

        Thu, December 3, 2009 - 7:24 AM
        i know it wasn't invented then (remember that part in my post wher ei said 'i know it's not period"?)
        however i saw a post online somewhere (facebook i think?) by a middle eastern group that was hosting a musical event and it said "bring your instruments"
        the chick in the photo had a clarinet =p

        you wont hear it if you just dont come.
        • Re: Different Instruments at Pennsic

          Sun, December 6, 2009 - 12:43 AM
          I say bring it, play it, enjoy it.

          There's definitely a clarinet player, Melissa, who even teaches classes using her clarinet.

          I don't believe dumbeks are period, neither are guitars or accordions, but they are live music, which I think adds to the atmosphere. The feeling of "this could be then". Which is a nice middle ground between glowstick-gawdy and carrying documentation around on documentable parchment.
          • Re: Different Instruments at Pennsic

            Sun, December 6, 2009 - 8:17 AM
            While I'm not a big fan of the amplified string instruments and modern trumpets and such at every party at War, I do believe there are places at War where they work. I had a blast at Burning Hand with Ishtar playing their brass and such. They are a great band, they play music that works for the audience, and the clarinet player has a contagious love for entertaining and playing for dancers that keeps the party hopping. I never heard one person complain that the valves on the instruments weren't period, or that the instrument was cast in a modern style, or any of that. We all had too much fun enjoying the vibe.

            My issue is still not the instrument as much as the lack of knowledge on the part of unseasoned Pennsic musicians of how large drum circles work at the big parties. A huge sardine party is the perfect place for a new drummer to learn the ropes, follow the beats, and try to blend in. Unfortunately, most new drummers do not know how to blend in. The same goes for other instruments. I have seen amplified sitars and guitars and other instruments that could work at some places, but absolutely don't work in others. Due to the relative small number of these instruments, they tend to stand out against all the loud banging that goes on at the big parties - which can be a good thing or a very bad thing. If the drummers are set up correctly where they can all hear each other, rather than in a huge circle where the lines get crossed, the string player can break up the mood and create a small solo section in the music that can work. But for a sitar to try to blend in with 40 bad drummers who have five beats playing around the fire, nothing will make it better and the sitar player will stand out as not fitting in and it just won't work.

            I personally feel that the big drum circle parties work best with drums, and the string instruments work best with haflas and smaller parties where they can be heard cohesively with other musicians and truly appreciated. If the string players want to be heard at big parties, they need to come together so they have a bigger voice and can compete fairly with the drums.

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